Better of ‘How To’: Waste Time

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This episode, from our fifth season, referred to as Learn how to Preserve Time, options co-hosts Ian Bogost and Becca Rashid in dialog with Oliver Burkeman to discover what it could possibly appear like to let go in a tradition preoccupied with productiveness.

The next is a transcript of the episode:

[Music]

Megan Garber: Hey, it’s Megan Garber, one of many co-hosts from Learn how to Know What’s Actual. We’re excited to share with you a particular sequence drawn from previous seasons of the How To sequence. For the previous couple of weeks, we’ve been revisiting episodes across the theme of redirecting vitality and winding down. This episode is from Season 5, Learn how to Preserve Time, and is named “Learn how to Waste Time.”

Co-hosts Ian Bogost and Becca Rashid discover what it could possibly appear like to let go in a tradition preoccupied with productiveness, and why letting go might be simply the best factor.

[Music]

Becca Rashid: So, Ian, once I despatched you that voice observe yesterday, I simply wished to allow you to in my head just a little bit.

Rashid: A small glimpse into how anxious I’m simply ready for something.

Ian Bogost: It was solely 4 minutes, Becca. It’s not very a lot time.

Rashid: It’s embarrassing, and I’m standing there, and whereas I’m ready I’m switching between two modes, of like, I needs to be profiting from this time. Let me learn that article my good friend despatched me. Or verify my emails.

Or, like: That is insane. It’s solely been 4 minutes. I needs to be a bit extra conscious. However I do know that I don’t need to be losing my time simply standing there.

[Music]

Rashid: I’m Becca Rashid, producer of Learn how to Preserve Time, and I’m right here with my co-host, Ian Bogost.

Bogost: Hey, Becca.

Rashid: Hey, Ian. Numerous your writing and reporting right here at The Atlantic is about know-how and all of the methods it’s modified how we perceive ourselves and the folks round us.

However I additionally take into consideration how a lot tech has modified our relationship with time.

Bogost: Know-how tends to make issues quicker.

Trains and airplanes get you locations quicker; factories and machines construct issues quicker.

However communications applied sciences—like telephones and the web and such—enable us to ship and obtain info quicker. And much more incessantly, too.

Rashid: And all these emails and texts and posts and notifications give us extra stuff we will do. And it makes it simpler to do one thing on a regular basis, proper? That makes it more durable to tolerate losing time—simply doing nothing, or being alone along with your ideas.

Bogost: Oh gosh, it’s so true, Becca. You recognize, your laptop computer, smartphone—all of these gadgets make it simpler to get extra accomplished. Work, socialize, or do banking, or type of something in any respect.

So on one half, we’re extra environment friendly however proceed to really feel like there simply aren’t sufficient hours within the day. And , Becca, in your final season, you talked in regards to the issue of constructing significant relationships. And when it comes all the way down to it, most individuals simply want extra time to try this type of factor.

Rashid: However even once we do have sufficient time, we don’t know find out how to lean into the second the best way we used to—we’re both anxiously planning for the following process, or we’re being compulsively productive as a result of we’re type of nervous about free time on this new method, once we’re simply kind alone with our ideas.

Like, why does it really feel like time is transferring too quick at sure factors and different days by no means? Or how can we reconcile regrets over shedding time or losing that that we do have?

Bogost: Yeah, I imply all this time stuff can really feel actually slippery —one second, what you need to do and also you simply can’t discover time to do it.

However then the following second, you’re completely swimming in time that you simply don’t know what to do with. So hopefully we will make sense of a few of these issues this season.

Rashid: That is Learn how to Preserve Time.

[Music]

Bogost: Becca, while you’re fascinated about losing time, what do you imply? Losing time in comparison with what? To do extra work? Or like, ready to get again to your desk to do extra work? With the intention to, what … ship extra emails? Isn’t that only a waste of time, too?

Rashid: No, I do know. I do know. However I all the time have the thought behind my head that my time is restricted. There’s really one thing referred to as chronophobia.

Bogost: Chronophobia.

Rashid: The place some folks actually fear about that have of time passing. I can perceive that impulse to really feel like time is withering away for those who’re not doing one thing productive with it.

Bogost: Positive.

Rashid: I don’t know; it makes me marvel how we bought so far of measuring our personal time and different folks’s time. How can we really spend much less of our time measuring how a lot of it’s being wasted?

Bogost: When you consider it, it isn’t all of your time all the time being put to make use of. You’re there in your physique and your thoughts. You’re residing by way of your day and your life it doesn’t matter what you’re getting accomplished. And your time is finite.

Your years on Earth are numbered. And, uh, you’re by no means going to have the ability to do all the things. You need to do all the things doable due to that. So possibly we, moderately than chasing it, want to determine find out how to be in time. Being in time moderately than chasing time.

[Music]

Oliver Burkeman: I used to be utterly freaked out once I first did this calculation and found out that, uh, the typical lifespan within the developed world is round 4,000 weeks.

Clearly, you don’t know what number of weeks you’re gonna get in any particular person case. It’s extra this truth of it being finite is one thing that I feel we clearly intellectually perceive, however we don’t behave on a day-to-day foundation as if time have been finite.

Rashid: So Ian, I talked to Oliver Burkeman—a journalist and an writer. He used to write down a column for The Guardian the place he wrote loads about productiveness hacks and private growth.

Burkeman: This truth of it being finite is one thing that I feel we clearly intellectually perceive, however we don’t behave on a day-to-day foundation as if time have been finite.

Rashid: And through our interview, he talked about what he referred to as a disillusionment with all of the self-help options.

Bogost: Yeah, yeah; I really feel that.

Burkeman: So I feel an terrible lot of that type of typical productiveness recommendation is actually based mostly on preserving this fantasy alive that very quickly—subsequent few weeks, subsequent few months, sooner or later—you’re gonna get to this place the place you’re up to the mark, the place you’ve got your arms round all the things, you’re the type of air site visitors controller of your life, ?

Rashid: However then at some point, after years of being within the weeds of life-style recommendation, he had a type of epiphany on a park bench throughout a extremely demanding week when he realized that not one of the time-management hacks have been working.

Burkeman: I used to be attempting type of more and more frenetically and frantically and desperately to provide you with the set of methods and scheduling methods that will allow me to get by way of this ridiculous amount of stuff and simply being hit by the thought like, Oh, oh, it’s unattainable. Oh, I see. Proper. It’s unattainable.

Bogost: Becca, I imply I’ve undoubtedly spent years CHASING time myself and never understanding precisely find out how to be in it, however possibly the trick is to simply settle for what Burkeman is saying … that it’s unattainable.

Rashid: Burkeman wrote a ebook in 2021 referred to as 4 Thousand Weeks: Time Administration for Mortals, the place he walks readers by way of his private journey with attempting to get on prime of all of it, on prime of time, and failing miserably.

[Music]

Burkeman: We’re consistently attempting to achieve a type of godlike place over our time.

Rashid: Okay; while you say “a godlike place,” I’m considering, like, all forgiving, most merciful. However while you say “godlike place over time,” what do you imply by that?

Burkeman: I feel—and once more, to some extent this will simply be the hang-ups and screwups of me and another folks—however I feel that a number of what we’re doing once we declare that we’re participating in changing into extra productive, extra environment friendly, getting up to the mark, getting organized, is actually an try to type of really feel limitless with respect to time, with respect to the duties, obligations, targets, ambitions we’d have for utilizing our time.

It’s a method of type of not having to really feel what it actually feels wish to be finite, to should make powerful selections, to should acknowledge that there are all the time going to be extra issues that it will be significant to do with time than we’re ever going to have the chance to do.

Rashid: It’s fascinating; I went by way of this part, , in my early 20s the place I noticed if I wished to be amazingly completed at something I might have needed to have began once I was three years outdated. You recognize, whether or not that’s like gymnastics or ice skating or what have you ever; I used to be already a long time behind. It may be actually exhausting to deal with the belief that that point is gone, and you might not have ample time to get there sooner or later.

Burkeman: I feel clearly it’s doable, in a really type of down-to-earth method, to make use of one’s time effectively for some future aim, proper? However I feel that on a type of deeper stage, what a number of us are doing once we’re attempting to make use of time effectively, in that sense—once we’re type of deeply dedicated, as American tradition is very deeply dedicated, , to the concept that each second should be used maximally effectively—it’s not solely that that turns into a really type of capitalistic thought the place the one actual profit is is the revenue motive.

It’s additionally simply the truth that it’s centered on the long run, proper? It’s all-defining: All the pieces about now when it comes to some extra essential second coming later, when it’s going to really have its worth. It’s going to money out, ; it’s going to have been price doing.

And so as a result of what occurs while you do that is that you find yourself, like, lacking your life. You find yourself lacking the current. Or to talk to what you have been saying, , centered on remorse that you simply didn’t begin utilizing your time on this rigorously instrumental method earlier previously, you get to this very unusual conclusion.

The one possible way to make use of time rather well—to really discover which means within the current—is by some definition of the time period to waste it.

I feel that in some ways, due to the world wherein we dwell, that’s so utterly dedicated to the concept that time should be used for future advantages, all the things we consider as “losing time,” as pure idleness, is actually outlined as that as a result of it doesn’t result in one thing sooner or later.

Rashid: Proper, and I’m even referencing my childhood as wasted time, once I ought to have been coaching to be a gymnast, as a substitute of simply, like, a childhood. However in maturity it’s more durable to see it that method, as a result of effectivity, time administration, and productiveness are all important parts in how we make a residing.

So, how can we strategy this concept of losing time and the way we’re conditioned to consider it—not as one thing pulling us away from productiveness, however simply as part of life?

Burkeman: It’s one thing that takes a optimistic effort. It feels such as you shouldn’t simply be utilizing your leisure time to go on a run. It’s a must to be coaching for a 10K or one thing.

Rashid: Yeah, proper.

Burkeman: It’s a must to have health targets. It’s type of a bit embarrassing, indirectly, possibly, to have a passion lately, but it surely’s actually not embarrassing to have a aspect hustle. And the one actual distinction is that a type of is one thing you’re attempting to show right into a enterprise.

Whereas, , if what you want doing is accumulating stamps from all over the world, proper? That doesn’t actually work anymore. I’m undecided what occurred to stamp accumulating lately, however .

Rashid: Like, a nonproductive passion for sheer enjoyment, however there’s nothing materially worthwhile about that. Possibly, with the stamps.

Burkeman: Proper. Yeah, the thinker Kieran Setiya, he makes use of the phrase “atelic actions.” So, actions that aren’t given their which means by their telos or the place they’re headed.

Burkeman: And that’s completely true in type of listening, actually listening, to different folks. Extremely exhausting. It’s actually exhausting to not simply spend a dialog fascinated about what you propose to say subsequent when the noise coming from the opposite particular person ceases for a bit, which is in fact probably not listening. And so for me, a giant a part of that is simply understanding that this doesn’t really feel second nature to too many people.

Rashid: I hear you. I imply, even on this second I discover myself fascinated about what you’re saying and in addition forward to all of the questions that I’ve left to get by way of. It’s type of like when somebody asks me what my identify is, after which I inform them, and so they inform me theirs—however all I can bear in mind is my identify that I stated out loud.

[Music]

Bogost: So, Becca, possibly it’s an issue in our tradition, moderately than in us. We’re simply all, like, so wound up over profiting from each second. A lot that we don’t even actually know anymore what “profiting from a second” would even imply.

Rashid: And , Ian, I’ve even had buddies inform me they’re on courting apps nearly as a method to productively use their time. As an alternative of scrolling on Instagram, not less than they’re, , constructing towards a relationship.

Bogost: Okay, it’s been a very long time since I’ve dated, and I by no means use courting apps. Are you saying your folks are like, “Effectively, bought some downtime; I higher get my courting in”?

Rashid: Sure, undoubtedly. Relationship is its personal model of a productive passion, in my view.

Bogost: I assume it is smart in a sure method, like courting as productiveness or as an funding in your future partnership, or no matter it’s that you simply’re after. Like, possibly that’s the place that concept comes from. You recognize, “I don’t need to waste my time if this isn’t going wherever,”—that type of sentiment is about progress. Like, {that a} relationship is about transferring ahead and constructing into no matter comes subsequent. God forbid your relationship isn’t going wherever, proper?

Rashid: Proper.

Bogost: However, like, the place is “wherever,” anyway?

Rashid: I don’t know. I really feel like I’m happiest once I’m simply losing time with folks. So, once I’m attempting to profit from my time with somebody, anybody—romantic or in any other case—I’m not not less than attempting to consider how a lot of my time they’re taking over, or probably the most environment friendly method to be with them, or whether or not it’s going someplace, or whether or not it’s productive.

[Music]

Burkeman: If I’m simply type of round the home with my son and my spouse, it’s very straightforward to fall into “what wants doing subsequent”—, this chore, that chore, getting ready for the following day. I feel if you are able to do something to type of put your self ready the place you will have, , all gone on a stroll, or all gone to go to one thing, or all watching the film, or no matter it’s—if there’s a type of a framework round that—it’s just a little bit simpler to step away from that instrumentalist mindset.

Once I bear in mind, I feel additionally bringing consideration to the senses, versus thought, is actually essential. You recognize: simply actually taking note of sights, sounds, contact, odor, no matter, is a method of decreasing the ability that in any other case naturally—for folks like me anyway—goes to type of compulsive thought.

Rashid: So how can I be each conscious and engaged with my time extra usually, with out having to go full Zen mental-shutdown mode?

Burkeman: Simply to be clear, I discover being on this mindset—moderately than the instrumental future-focused one—actually tough. And I feel, you may actually get misplaced in thought. And I’m undecided I need to condemn that, as a result of I feel generally that may be a wonderfully significant factor to do, however perceive and anticipate that it’s going to really feel uncomfortable firstly. Lots of people lately say they don’t have time to learn anymore.

Rashid: Proper, proper.

Burkeman: And I feel what they typically actually imply is that they don’t just like the expertise of sitting down with a ebook, as a result of their minds are so conditioned to transferring quick that it feels disagreeable. I’ve actually had that have.

All I can do—and I discover it terribly efficient, but it surely doesn’t really feel like an extremely nice perception or something—however all I do is I remind myself that that is how the primary couple of pages really feel while you’re wired for pace and also you’re simply sitting down and also you’re simply starting to learn a novel. And , that’s fantastic, however the discomfort doesn’t kill you, and it lifts.

[Music]

Rashid: So, Oliver, most of our dialog has been in regards to the vital mindset shift that’s required to be extra in tune with every second. And, , it makes me take into consideration my buddies with youngsters, as a result of they should be super-present with their baby within the second, be current with themselves (sufficient to be affected person with their child). They usually additionally have to sustain with all of the productive duties and calls for to profit from their time in their very own lives.

I imply, how can we steadiness these competing priorities when there’s a type of instrumental aim to, , increase your baby and make them right into a compassionate human being sooner or later who can exist and thrive on the earth on their very own, and in addition be current with them within the second?

Burkeman: I discover parenting to be a unprecedented crucible for all of this, simply because there may be a lot strain, each internally and externally, to deal with all questions of what it means to be a superb mum or dad as questions on what it’s good to do with the intention to create probably the most profitable future grownup. Um, , my son’s studying to play the piano a bit.

I’m attempting very exhausting to not flip right into a type of tyrant type of mum or dad insisting on a lot observe that it takes all the enjoyment out of the expertise. And when as a substitute he’s banging round on the piano and I’m banging round on the xylophone that we have now in the home.

Rashid: A band!

Burkeman: Precisely. You recognize, I don’t suppose that there’s any a part of me, in that second, that’s considering, How can we make this band actually good in order that we will …

Rashid: … begin a world tour?

Burkeman: From touring and downloads, proper? I imply there’s something in regards to the letting go into these moments that’s completely implausible. However the place I might most naturally go can be like, “Okay, piano observe for this many minutes. Have you ever gone by way of these workout routines?”

With parenting and life on the whole, it all the time feels such as you’re studying simply too late. However I’m studying that there’s worth within the type of ridiculousness of constructing these noises within the current, moderately than the place they is likely to be main.

[Music]

Bogost: So Becca, the opposite day I met a colleague of mine for a drink after work, and we went to this type of bizarre pub on this resort. And there was no cell sign, no Wi-Fi community, and I used to be simply sitting there ready for him.

So I simply seemed round at, , the folks coming in, and I seemed on the menu a number of instances, and I noticed, That is so uncommon.

I lastly couldn’t do the rest, and so I didn’t really feel like I needs to be doing one thing else. As a result of there was nothing else I may actually do.

Rashid: Oh, fascinating. I really feel like if I used to be in your footwear, I might nonetheless really feel like I needs to be doing one thing else.

Bogost: I in all probability did really feel that method, in fact. However that sensation that, like, it’s worse to do nothing than to delete emails in your cellphone? Proper? However , it wasn’t all the time like this. I wrote a bit earlier this 12 months about this. What did folks do earlier than smartphones? I don’t imply for work or for leisure—what did they do throughout these off instances? Once they have been ready for the dentist, or no matter, and it was really horrible? We have been tremendous bored, .

I bear in mind being a child, and also you’d look by way of the Highlights journal 100 instances earlier than the physician lastly referred to as you. Or like, studying something you may discover: indicators on the wall, looking at clocks. You recognize, previously, while you had {a magazine} or no matter, you’ll burn by way of it. It might be expended. There have been solely so many pages, and when you’d learn them or skimmed them, you have been accomplished.

And your cellphone, your Instagram, no matter it’s: There’s all the time one thing new. Possibly it’s not fascinating to you, but it surely’s new. And that seems like a distinction.

In order that discomfort related to having nothing new to see within the second, that’s type of gone away. Now there’s all the time one thing new. And I feel that makes it simpler for us to suppose, Effectively, I needs to be doing one thing new at each second.

Rashid: Proper. And that strain to do one thing new at each second—I’ve been at so many dinners and we simply sit down, it’s a bunch of individuals. And if there’s even a quick lull in dialog, somebody says, like, “The place are we going after this?” However we simply bought there. We’re on the place, we’re on the dinner.

Bogost: You recognize Becca, I ponder if it’s exhausting to tolerate losing time as a result of we’re all the time trying ahead to one thing—what comes subsequent. Or we have now issues like smartphones now that make ready extra tolerable, as a result of we will do one thing new on a regular basis.

However , I imply, we didn’t used to know the bus was coming in 4 minutes, since you may take a look at your cellphone and see it. I imply it will come ultimately, maybe, and you’ll be pressured to type of cope with the truth that the bus, , it’s not simply there for you, that you simply’re only one particular person on the earth, and also you might need to simply wait.

[Music]

Rashid: Endurance, persistence. We’re all the time being examined … like proper now. We’ll be again proper after a fast break.

[Music]

Burkeman: The artwork historian Jennifer Roberts factors out that persistence lately is definitely a type of actually essential type of management. It was once that persistence was one thing that folks, moderately condescendingly, had really helpful to individuals who didn’t have energy, proper?

So within the days when girls have been more likely to be type of obliged to stay at residence doing home issues, whereas males have been out working on the earth, persistence was a advantage—as a result of it’s the type of factor that retains folks from complaining about their scenario.

However as society has sped up, persistence adjustments its position. Like now, the default is that we’re all transferring extremely quick. and it turns into a type of company to have the ability to sit with an issue, sit with an expertise, and never have to deliver issues to the following stage or work out the place they’re headed.

Rashid: As just a little child, and even now generally, simply feeling like all the things I wished to do in life wanted to be accomplished right this moment. Like—the idea of “extra time tomorrow” was by no means my default. And I bear in mind my dad and mom would all the time say, “Why are you speeding all the things? You’re so younger; you will have a lot time.” Is it useful to show youngsters that point is restricted or limitless? And which one results in youngsters having a greater relationship with time as they become old?

Burkeman: Yeah; there’s a method of deciphering all this speak about time being restricted and life being quick, which is extremely stress inducing, proper? It principally says, like, “There’s no time. You’ve bought to get transferring now. You’ve bought to fill your life with one million extraordinary actions day-after-day, as a result of in any other case, will you actually have lived?”

Burkeman: I feel, firstly: Children, in my expertise, have a really pure affinity for being extra current and fewer type of fixated on maximizing effectivity. However then, clearly in an age-appropriate method, the message right here is, “Yeah, time is finite.” However that’s not a cause to begin hurrying and match absolutely the most right into a single day or a single lifetime.

It’s a cause to cherish the time that you simply get, and to essentially present up for it and to get pleasure from it. I undoubtedly went by way of a big interval of early maturity the place I used to be deep within the type of time-maximization effectivity mindset, and possibly one has to undergo that to, , come out the opposite finish with some type of perception.

Rashid: So Oliver, for households or individuals who do have critical time constraints, they don’t all the time have the luxurious to decide on when to spend time with their youngsters, or after they must be at work. Is there something that may assist make the shortcoming to decide on really feel much less painful?

Burkeman: I feel a number of that is simpler for me to say than will probably be for some, and it’s a lot worse if for anyone, the choice they should make is between preserving meals on the desk and spending high quality time with their youngsters, for instance. They’re simply in a worse place than me.

They’re within the similar place to me solely within the sense that in each hour, they’ll do one factor with any second, realistically, and all the opposite ones they should let go. It doesn’t imply that the alternatives, the choices that you’ve open to you, are good ones. That will depend on your scenario in life and society, completely.

But it surely does imply that you would be able to let go, to a big extent, of being haunted by indecision or by guilt or by the sense that you simply should have been doing one thing else with it, proper? Or that you simply someway should be doing greater than you are able to do. No person ought to ever really feel that they should do greater than they’ll do.

Rashid: I really feel that method most of the time. However how do I start to step outdoors this productiveness mindset with my time?

Burkeman: You possibly can resolve to undertake a sure passion or change the way you apportion your time, in order to spend extra time nurturing a selected relationship or one thing.

You’re not committing to it for the entire of the remainder of your days; you simply should take a little bit of your time now, or very quickly, to do one thing that issues to you. Even when it’s solely 10 minutes; even in case you are not assured that you simply’re going to have the ability to do it day-after-day for the following month or something like that. However to simply do a few of it.

And I feel really, it is a place the place the give attention to habit-building will be fairly counterproductive. As a result of for those who inform your self you’re going to begin meditating day-after-day, endlessly, that’s fairly a burden. And it’s fairly tempting to type of put it off for a number of extra weeks till your schedule clears up. For those who inform your self you’re going to do it for 10 minutes right this moment, and that’s it, then that’s the level at which issues begin altering apparently in a single’s life, I feel.

I feel all of us expertise, generally, that sense of merely being within the movement of time, moderately than having this sort of clock or calendar, or nonetheless you visualize it, hounding you. Or that you simply’re consistently type of preventing.

It’s only for itself. Effectively, that’s clearly very near a fairly deep type of religious, Buddhist-sounding, Daoist-sounding thought: about how really solely the current is actual, and that you need to type of discover worth in it for those who’re going to search out worth wherever. There’s an actual argument that “losing time” in the best way we outline that lately is one thing that’s extraordinarily essential for us to be taught to do.

Rashid: Oliver, thanks a lot once more on your time. I’ve discovered a lot.

Burkeman: Oh, it’s been a pleasure.

[Music]

Bogost: So, Becca, I feel what Oliver is saying isn’t that we must always attempt to seize the literal current second; that’s unattainable now. At all times vanishes. It’s gone. It’s gone. But it surely’s like a barely larger “now”—like just a little trunk of the second that you would be able to be in and you may really feel taking place.

Rashid: I hear what Oliver is telling us being one thing extra like, “Once I’m off the clock and I’m at residence, I don’t must be rearranging my pantry instantly as my grandma would like to have me do.”

Bogost: I would like to try this too.

Rashid: I’m simply so conditioned to be productive and really feel like when I’ve a minute of downtime, if I’m not working towards a type of targets, that it’s being wasted.

Bogost: Mmm. So Becca, our present is named Learn how to Preserve Time. So “preserving time”: I used to be fascinated about that phrase. You know the way you utilize it in music, such as you hold time in music?

Rashid: Like with a metronome? Yeah.

Bogost: Yeah, just like the rhythmic sense of preserving time. Like tapping your foot.

Rashid: Yep.

Bogost: For those who may really feel the beat or hear the metronome, that’s as shut as we get to type of being within the second. Yeah; you may’t seize the current, however you may type of really feel it transferring from current to current to current.

Rashid: And I assume that’s the aim, proper? I imply, it’s one thing I’m undoubtedly dangerous at, as a result of I’m all the time fascinated about maximizing my 4,000 weeks, if I’ve even bought that a lot time.

And I feel for me, I simply want to begin considering of my time as my very own—not one thing that must be maximized or confirmed to different folks as one thing that I’m utilizing correctly.

What does that even imply?

Bogost: Proper. Since you’re simply utilizing it, “correctly” or not.

Rashid: Proper.

Bogost: You recognize, you may not be productive on a regular basis. You may really feel such as you’re losing time. However the time that you simply spend … it’s nonetheless yours, even for those who’re not making one thing of it. I imply, possibly we have to make that absence of productive satisfaction okay.

[Music]

[Music]

Rashid: Stick with us for subsequent week’s episode, the place we discover why we strain ourselves to look busy … even once we’re not.

Bogost: That’s on our subsequent episode of Learn how to Preserve Time.

[Music]

Garber: For those who loved this episode, take a hearken to Season 5, Learn how to Preserve Time. You’ll find all six episodes wherever you get your podcasts. Subsequent up in our particular best-of assortment about find out how to decelerate, we’ll take a look at how discovering pleasure and delight first begins with figuring out what you get pleasure from.